Sunday, March 6, 2011

The Gentleman's Victory

My two favorite bloggers have a few things in common. They are literary and profound thinkers and I would say this is what defines their writings. Still I am irked by the same annoying quality in each of them: their unwillingness to stand up and fight.  

They will freely give their opinions, but they seldom move down into the trenches to defend them. One, whom I will call Burr in order to preserve his anonymity, is a far left, very out-spoken liberal, who virtually never answers a challenge to his position. His silence is not symptomatic of cowardice, as one who does not know him may erroneously conclude. It is something else. The other, whom I will call Vincent, appears more willing to give a slight rebuttal; but he also seems sanctimoniously intolerant of back and forth arguments.
I have had no problem filling the void they leave behind, a fact I will attempt to clarify after I tell you about my affection for chess.
It is considered a gentlemen’s game, and I suppose it is, in the same way that a duel is a gentlemanly way to settle a dispute. Chess is a noble battlefield, peopled with royalty, the King, the Queen, the sacrificial pawns and the majesty of its middle class. It all implies sophistication. In chess the winner knows it was he that won, and no one can attribute his victory to a random event; and the loser cannot console himself as the victim of a chance occurrence that worked against him.  If his ego is squashed, it is crushed purely, leaving no room for denial in the remains. No dice are rolled, no cards drawn, no fortune dealt. One person proves that in this instance and in this game, he is simply better than another one.
When I was younger, I loved to debate, but later in life the fire fizzled out. I appreciated the same virtue in debating that I saw in chess. You strategically outwit your opponent, and nothing is left to fate. I misused the debate, just as I misused chess. Passionate debates often seemed to result in hurt feelings and never accomplished anything. As I recall, I always won my debates and I fear that I alone own those memories. As I matured, I articulated the idea that a desire to debate is really a desire to conquer and this realization slowly dampened the fire inside me.
After years of rhetorical silence, I discovered the joy of blogging. There you could debate and withdraw on your own timeline. So long as you are respectful, no harm done. Philosophical and political bloggers often claim a search for clarification of truth as a motivation for their hobby. Don’t believe it. Bloggers blog because they enjoy blogging. Debaters debate because they enjoy debating.
I love reading the sites of opinionated people with unique thoughts or creative expressions. It is an educational pastime, a playground where intellectual discourse and lively discussion abide. I typically comment on conservative-minded blogs more often than I do on liberal ones, as I often find little to contribute to an article when I  largely agree with its conclusions.
A liberal response given on a conservative blog is really just a rebuttal. It seems OK. The conservative author expects it, probably welcomes it. Just ask him. But what am I really trying to do? I find an article written as a form of art or expression or sharing of an intellectual idea by a well-intentioned writer and I attempt to refute it, to invalidate its worth and to defeat its author’s ideas; to what end? Blog articles express opinions that are the natural result of other, more fundamental, deep-seated philosophies. Nothing anyone can say about the subject of a blogger’s article will typically change his mind or his thinking. To argue that I am trying to engage in discovery or mutually beneficial intellectual exchange of ideas seems a bit hypocritical. If this is the motivation of a blog commenter, his efforts are sorely misplaced, as it rarely works, and he would do better reading a book or donating his time to a soup kitchen.
No one seriously comments on blogs to change his own opinion, as he knows himself to be right and would not post a refuting comment in order to get a rebuttal that would convince him of something wrong. If he makes a long argument, he does so not to discover data, but because he believes he has the right data already. So, the commenter must comment either to change the opinion of someone else, someone who is statistically as likely to be right as the commenter himself, or to get his own opinion challenged, to sharpen his blades, and prepare him to outwit his next victim.  Whenever a blog commenter tells himself that he is merely trying to strengthen his grasp of truth, he is probably trying to fool you, but he may have fooled himself. Self-perception and debating motivation do not tend to get along. Blogging is not an educational chore, but a hobby. When a blogger maintains an internet presence as a debater, he does so for the love of the game.
I tried to justify my dissenting comments, and sometimes satirical ridicule, as part of a mutually agreed upon game, like chess. If those involved all enjoy it, then what is the harm, and why shouldn’t I play? To paraphrase, why shouldn’t I find a writer’s virtual home and attempt to burn it down? The effort is divisive and ultimately fruitless. If you cannot possibly change anyone’s mind in a substantive way, then why would you go to their site and attack their articles? To invalidate a person’s creation is to invalidate a part of the person.
It reminds me of the atheist who tries to disprove that Jesus is the Son of God because he resents the fact that the theist is wrong in the matter. Something compels him to go after the theist, to catch him in his mistaken notion. The more data you use to challenge him, the harder he will fight and the more aggressive he will become. A mountain lion, once trapped, becomes angrier, and less open to reason. Why would I want to trap him? How well I succeed is not relevant. The meaningful question is why would I feel the need to try to refute logic just because I think it is erroneous? Knowing that our beliefs on philosophical issues usually stem from more fundamental principles, making productive debate on specifics pointless, why should I want to engage him? The best I could hope for is to prove my intended victim wrong about the specifics we are debating. He would still walk away with the same fundamentals that took him there, and so his overall politics would not change.
It is a sophist’s game, to try to out maneuver those with different philosophical foundations than I by challenging them on specifics. If a person is proud to win a game, then regardless of what he tells you, it would probably shame him to lose one, even if only a little. If he tries to win and fails, the loss in not a neutral outcome, but an invalidating failure, even if he tells you it is not, and even if he outwardly perceives that no harm is done. A recent study showed that those who play and win computer games against other players have more confidence in other areas of life for the rest of the day.
Benighted as they may be in their gentleness, both Burr and Vincent seem to have learned something long ago that I am just beginning to appreciate: it is not true that in order for me to win, someone else must lose. It is hard to walk away when you see the weak spot and your sword is drawn. It is hard to resist trying to slay those who have opinions other than our own.
In the liberal vs. conservative debates, nobody wins and everyone claims victory. It’s easy to see the phenomenon when you watch it from a distance, but not when you are emotionally invested. A debate is like a chess match, but it is not chess. Victory is subjective. After a liberal attacks a conservative site through blog comments, the conservatives feel their castle walls withstood the test, that the olive oil they poured over the turrets boiled the flesh off the invading force; that their boulders crushed the invader’s skull. The liberal remembers Ozymandias as he eyes the broken statue where the castle once stood and marvels at the smirk on the face in the ruins. It would all be good were it not for the overshadowing fog of resentment emanating from the debris. As charges of incivility betray a sense of umbrage left in the aftermath of an aggressive opponent’s passion, everyone claims no offense is taken. And even if the conservatives are mistaken about the outcome, so too the liberal suffers his own illusions, as illustrated in the fact that he can dream up a reality where besieging a castle in “good-humored” rebuttal is harmless. He tells himself that it is really just a philosophical exercise, a game each side enjoys: all in good fun.
Except no minds are changed and each side’s proclamations of victory echo over bruised egos half buried in stacks of smoking rubble; each side marvels at how the other could be so foolish as to keep trying to stand under the gargantuan force of their wisdom; and the liberal does not emerge as unscathed as he perceives himself to be, a perception he holds probably because he must, more than for any other reason. He did not convince anyone of anything, anymore than his opponents did. The only person who sensed the powerful blow of any proof he introduced, was the liberal himself, who needed no convincing. His only success was in offending a bunch of conservatives who were minding their own business before he moved in and tried to convince them of the error of not thinking like him; and he failed. His opponents’ most fundamental assumptions differ from his; he sees nonsense where they see obvious truth; so his liberal arguments are foolish and easily refutable with conservative logic.
Since annoying his philosophical adversaries was not a part of his conscious plan, regardless of the power or weakness of his arguments and regardless of the condition of the conservatives after the battle, there is no denying that the liberal was utterly defeated; none of his objectives were met.
So if the conservatives lost and the liberals lost, then who won? Burr and Vincent.

26 comments:

Vincent said...

Where is this Burr? You say he is a liberal. I am a conservative. I shall fire salvoes at his castle and smoke him out, till he surrenders. You will be sorry, John!

John Myste said...

He is in a constant state of surrender, and like me, would forgive you for your conservatism because you have other virtues. I already tried to destroy his castle on a number of occasions. It doesn’t work. I go there to break down the gates and find them wide open.

Vincent said...

I was going to say (before you pulled the post) these words, which I fortunately copied to the clipboard:

However, he is an American liberal and I am an English conservative. They probably wouldn't fight even if you goaded them with sharp sticks, even though their strutting displays and tail-feathers would be in sharp contrast and give you the impression they were adversaries.

Francis Hunt said...

You are, of course, entirely right, John. A number of years ago I spent much time in a number of internet discussion fora - of late, I find myself visiting them less and less; I find little new in people lobbing the same argumentative grenades at each other from ideologically well-secured trenches.

Any kind of good dialogue, any real dialectic, involves openness; giving and taking, hearing as well as talking, thesis and antithesis combining to form synthesis. A true Socratic attitude involves questioning everying, including one's own positions. But such a dialogue can only take place when all participants are prepared to adopt such openness and acceptance of the conditionality of their views. And this is, indeed, a rare phenomen anywhere, even in the great world wide web.

Still, I find other reasons for visiting many blogs - an admirable style of writing or presenting arguments, for example. Perhaps most of all, a glimpse of the personality behind the argument - the kind of interpersonal encounter which brings one to the conclusion; Yes, he's certainly an antediluvian troglodyte conservative, but somehow I like him! From such encounters friendship - even virtual friendship - can grow, and that is something very precious.

John Myste said...

Francis,

This is nothing if not a self-indictment. I recognized my own need to conquer; something I readily saw in others, and at once perceived that what I desire is impossible, and also that I should not desire it.

It is largely human nature, but it seems it is not all human's nature. I had removed that desire in face to face discussions (I think) by talking myself out of desiring it, years ago. Online, it did not seem like combat, at first, that is. Then I got involved in five simultaneous debates and much to my dismay, I realized that “I started it,” credit I previously always gave to the other guy.

S.W. Anderson said...

A very interesting and thought-provoking post. It brings to mind an old story.

There once was a soldier who would regularly hold forth for the benefit of anyone within earshot on the futility of war. He was in a trench at last light and doing that very thing when the stillness was shattered by a sharp "crack." The philosopher soldier immediately went quiet, crumpled and fell, becoming another tragic statistic.

The moral: In war, keep your head down, your rifle up, your eyes and ears open and your mouth shut. There'll be plenty of time to ponder the futility of war once the damn thing is over.

I've always thought that was good advice. ;)

Dave Dubya said...

As we well know, the lively salvos of verbal volleys between the Left and Right are not really debates in the traditional sense. They are more like entrenched exchanges of opinion.

Debate can only proceed with mutually accepted definitions of terms. Typically the exchange features terms like "Death Panels", "union thugs" and "liberal media" that one side holds as clearly established facts, which the other side must question. Then there's the issue of documented verifiable evidence. FOX(R), Beck and Limbaugh are bastions of truth to one side while the other wastes energy in denying the veracity of such sources.

So we see each side speaks separate languages from radically different foundations of beliefs.

It's a minor miracle we're not killing each other.

"What we have here is a failure to communicate."

John Myste said...

S.W.,

That is good advice for war. I am not sure this perverted form of debate we do has to be a war. I see others engage in the process without the conflict. I am just now trying to learn how they do it. Oddly enough, some of the sites I really enjoy are ones where the battles happen, and I enjoy them even when I do not participate. Some of the wars between Dave D and T. Paine are classics. I rarely join in for many reasons, among them the fact that both men can talk over my head pretty quickly and they are all over the map. I am trying to figure out how to be content with being silent and thought a fool.

T. Paine said...

Myste, as if to demonstrate your point, S.W. Anderson comes charging in on his faithful steed, Delano, and joins the battle that had not even begun.

For the record, Mr. Anderson, the GOP has drifted so far left after Reagan's leaving office (after Reagan's having restored an economy decimated by Carter, and set up the final chess pieces so as to win the Cold War to boot) that our nominees for President have all been center-right moderates at their worst extremes.

Bush Senior was a pale shadow of Reagan in his conservatism. He was a Rockefeller Republican and his legacy of the likes of Justice Souter to the SCOTUS demonstrates this.

Dole was hardly a right-wing fire brand and indeed I cannot come up with any "extremist" right wing legislation that he ever introduced in the senate.

Bush Jr was arguably even more to the left than JFK. Hell, Bush Jr. would have had a (D) beside his name back in the late '50's/early '60's.

And then we come to the "maverick" of John McCain who routinely pissed off his conservative base so much that he had to go fetch someone with more conservative credentials as a running mate to make the election even close.

The fact that the grass roots uprising, as manifested in the Tea Party movement, is so pissed is precisely because the nation has swung so far to the left.

When our last GOP president extended entitlements with his prescription drug benefits and spent money like a drunken Ted Kennedy (but then I am being redundant), I hardly think your fears of a rising right-wing fascist theocracy coming to fruition are ones really worthy of your valuable time, sir.

Myste, sorry to get off topic here, but I needed to help demonstrate how not having common definitions or understandings of issues creates such battles. Now that I have soundly defeated Anderson once again, I am sure we can all proceed in civil debate yet again, accordingly. Cheers! :)

T. Paine said...

John,

Oh please give me the links to those gentler blogs that foolishly refute this truth! I promise I'll play moderately nice. (Wow! I used the word moderate in reference to myself!)

"Bush senior was a cut above the rest." Why do I feel like me words have been weaseldoged there? ;)

While Scalia has his detractions, overall, I would far rather have another of him than a ACLU lawyer such as Ruth Vader Ginsburg on the SCOTUS bench.

Dole was dull. Interestingly enough, he seemed rather perky and lively in interviews and appearances after his defeat to slick Willie.

Bush Jr. vs. JFK. Both were ostensibly for projection of power and a strong national defense. Both started out fiscally by cutting taxes to help that rising tide lift all boats. Bush then decided, some of it initially necessary after 9/11, to start spending money we did not have. Then there is Iraq vs. Bay of Pigs....

Despite differences in the times, overall JFK was probably far more fiscally conservative than Bush Junior was. Yep, George W. Bush -D

2008 was an election between a far left-winger and a left-of-center old school Democrat. The real Democrat won the election instead of the Democrat-lite McCain.

Did you just compare Anderson to Hulk Hogan? I am not sure that the Hulkster would be that far left politically if he were to be the alternate personification of Anderson.

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

You know who else loses, JM - the moderates. We always take a pounding - even when we try to play peace maker (and especially when we try to play devil's advocate).......On a different note, did you ever hear the story about Barry Goldwater? - the one in which he was debating this guy on the floor of the Senate and, right in the middle of it, he said to him, "You know something, you're right. I've changed my mind." It's kind of too bad that that doesn't happen more often, huh?

John Myste said...

Mr. Hart,

I do not remember that, but I am glad Mr. Goldwater admitted to being wrong once. Since he was a moderate of sorts, I must assume you are a fan?

The Heathen Republican said...

John, I hope this doesn't mean you've toppled your king and are going home. For the record, I enjoy simply playing the game. You're welcome to debate (or play chess) at my place any time.

John Myste said...

Mr. Paine,

As for raising taxes, you seem to be a fan of Reagan who raised taxes over and over again. Has any president raised taxes more often? I know he started out with a huge gift to the richest Americans he could find, but then he started raising taxes. I know what you are thinking: “He did not reverse his taxes on the richest of Americans!” I know, I am not calling him a hypocrite, only a tax raiser. In retrospect, I understand why the first tax cut was done, not to say it was right or wrong, but I get it. However, if raising taxes is bad, then I assume you really hate Bush Sr. considering Reagan’s tax tax tax policies.

I assume that Rwanda, Bosnia, Somalia, are all equally infuriating. I am not a fan of Bush by any means, but if you have to pick a republican president, as I am sure you know, it is hard to choose because they are just all so yummy.

If the U.S. must always respond to its definition of man’s inhumanity to man, shouldn’t we not challenge our leaders on letting some genocide and some inhumanity stand, regardless of international consensus? Shouldn’t we declare ourselves the supreme judge on planet earth and if the U.N. or any other international body of pretenders tries to stop us, shouldn’t we use military might to convince them of the truth of our declaration? I am not justifying standing by while good people are massacred. I am merely saying we need to formalize our policy, so the rest of the world understands who the emperors are and who are the subjects, lest they mistake their voice as equal. The U.S. is a democracy. The world is not.

I know I sound sarcastic, but I am not unsympathetic to the philosophy of dictatorial prevention of genocide. However, I am hostile to selective processing of our ideals. Either we impose a subset of our will on everyone equally or not at all, else we don’t know when it is OK to do it and will argue over it incessantly.

Now, I don’t wish to get into a protracted debate over any of this, so, as usually, I resign in victory.

“I still think Hogan could take Anderson in a debate too.” I am sorry, but I don’t believe you think that. Does Hogan talk?

Will "take no prisoners" Hart said...

Goldwater, JM, had an integrity that few in today's Republican Party could even come close to. And, you're absolutely right, on many things he was a moderate; abortion and gay rights, especially. What was that famous line of his about gays in the military - you don't have to BE straight to shoot straight?

T. Paine said...

John, first, I seem to remember President Clinton committing the military to protecting Muslims in the Bosnia region. I also remember him tucking tail and pulling out of Somalia after the black-hawk down incident. Rwanda we did remain out of in nearly all aspects and untold thousands were killed accordingly.

My issue with regards to Bush Sr. and the Shia uprising after the first gulf war is the fact that our troops were already THERE. We were still deployed and could have easily stepped in to protect those people, but Bush Sr. didn't have a UN mandate to protect those people, so he didn't.

If he had done so, it is possible that Saddam could have toppled then, as the Kurds in the north would have likely joined the Shia in the south. Instead, we had to spend more blood and treasure over a decade later to finish the job that should have been done in the first place.

As for Jolly, it is interesting who one chooses to be a champion of truth. Barney Frank, considering his complicity with the Fannie and Freddie collapse and then lying about it, would not have been my first choice as a soothsayer. And no, Rush, Beck, and Palin, never gave me this talking point, sir.

T. Paine said...

No, I am not saying that Bush Sr. necessarily should have taken out Saddam directly, but rather when Saddam moved to crush the Shia uprising in the south, rather than wait for another UN mandate to protect those people, we should have stepped in and done so automatically. (Kinda like we probably should be providing no-fly zones for the Libyan rebels right now.)

If we had done so then, the likelihood is that the Saddam regime very well could have collapsed from within, thus we wouldn't have had to go back and deal with him again in the next Iraq war.

As for your characterization of Bosnia/Kosovo, Rwanda, and Somalia, it sounds like you pretty much nailed it.

I always chuckle at this great American empire we have built though, and even more amused that I have been a willing member of planting our flag in foreign nations accordingly.

Vincent said...

Mr Paine, let me speak for the majority here: the non-Americans. You may chuckle. We groan. For all you may dream that regimes may have collapsed from within, we sigh at the lousy regimes propped up by the great American empire (sic), the corruption of governments, the super-impoverishment of the already impoverished, the flouting of laws, the interfering subterfuge of the CIA, the sheer arrogance of the ignorant. Present company excepted.

I do not chuckle, and I shall not further engage in fruitless discussion on this matter.

John Myste said...

As an example of what Mr. Vincent has said, see the history of the government of Iran, where we prop up, support and train a government we later declare as a "satan" that the world should destroy.

T. Paine said...

John, I don't have to take this from you! I will take it from Vincent though...

Arashmania said...

I think it is more like a wrestling match than a chess game. Anyhow, my favorite phrase is "Bring it on!"

At the same time, I would like to take sides and egg on Vincent and egg Burr.

Well, not really, I wish Raymond all the best actually, regardless of ideology or politics and let's hope it's a rather fair and clean match.

Jolly Roger said...

I've given your request much thought, and I will respond formally, in post form, shortly. It may not be exactly what you want, but life, as in politics, is a series of compromises. I came up with something that allows me to preserve the nature of my site while partially acknowledging your concerns. You might dig it :)

John Myste said...

Jolly, that comment made no sense on this post. For those of you who don't know what Jolly meant, just let me assure you that ignorance is bliss.

T. Paine said...

Note to self: do not post comments on Dusty's blog. It will only serve to annoy her.

nothingprofound said...

"You can win the lottery, but not an argument."

John Myste said...

Nothingprofound,

That is the most profound thing I have ever heard you say.

Oh, and I don't know you, but welcome, sir.

P.S.

If you are not sir, my apologies, madam.

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