Tuesday, February 8, 2011

Grandpa's Coins

When I was five years old I thought I understood coins and I was convinced that Grandpa did not. He once gave my sister two dimes and a nickel, and to be fair, he gave me a quarter. My protest, as one might expect, was immediate.
Rather than admit to the crooked transaction, he made up a story about how it was the same amount of money and I was not cheated out of my implied fair share. I am a little embarrassed to admit it, but the little boy I was believed him on faith, despite the troubling coin count, and I never questioned it again until yesterday. Because of my conniving Grandpa, I have misunderstood coins for decades.
Yesterday’s breakthrough in my understanding came in the form of new conservative connection. Conservatives are good to have around, as they understand all fiscal matters better than liberals, and even better than Grandpa, who solved simple puzzles of coinage, but never cracked more complex issues, like the tax code. Liberals like me think with compassion, forsaking reason. Our sense of fairness is skewed by our belief that people are entitled to republicans’ money, just because they need it. Conservatives realize that fairness is a question of equality, not who needs someone else’s stuff. I will call my conservative mentor Dooh Nibor, which is an alias I use to deny him the honorable mention that is his due.
As a liberal, the tax code confuses me. Mr. Nibor taught me that liberals like myself believe that 70% of a portion of a republican’s wealth should be purloined by the government through taxation. I had never articulated this idea, and because it is so non-intuitive, I didn’t even realize I championed it. When he put that way, it seemed quite an absurd revelation that embarrassed me to no end.
He also corrected my definitions of flat vs. progressive taxation. It would seem that some of us on the left think flat tax means that Larry David gets taxed 100.00 per paycheck and so do we impoverished liberals. Nope, not right. Flat tax means that everyone gets taxed 10 percent, for example. A progressive tax means that Larry David may get taxed 10.1 percent on a portion of his earnings while I am only taxed 10 percent on all of mine, since I do not earn the portion that would be taxed higher. As you can see, this is quite unfair. The injustice is hidden from the liberal by his misunderstanding of the terms.
He not only corrected my definition of flat tax, but he also explained that I am mistaken about my idea that some of Larry David’s income should be taxed at a higher percentage than I and my impoverished liberal band of idiots have to pay. I didn’t really grasp what a flat tax was and I also disagreed with what it really is. I am becoming a fiscal conservative precisely to avoid this lack of clarity in my thinking.
Mr. Nibor explained that just taxation, which means flat taxation, does not have to be controversial. It is the only fair system and the controversy would end if liberals would stop creating it by disagreeing with Mr. Nibor.
Dooh Nibor asked a very astute question: “when did affordability become a measure of fairness?” The question is proof of his position that it is not the tax burden that should be distributed equally, but the tax itself. I think in an effort to make me look foolish, he failed to recant his previous argument in support of flat taxation, meaning everyone pays 10 percent, which means that the wealthy pay more, which he just implied was unfair. He well knew that this approach would further befuddle my little mind, and yet, he used it anyway.
Like Grandpa, Mr. Nibor clearly understands the basic principles of equality. I and my sister did not shop when we were five years old. We just liked money. We played with it. We collected it. I don’t remember what happened to our coins, but the coins were the thing that mattered to us, not what we could buy with them. We had the same philosophy that Mr. Nibor has. Poor folk like Grandpa, however, use currency only to acquire something else. They have no inherent use for dollars, 6.1 x 2.6 inch paper with ones printed on them, or for coins.
To explain this point, I will use the example of a single mother working as a waitress who has a young boy to support. Let us assume she earns 400.00 per week and uses all of it on necessities. It could be that she suddenly has a large payment due. I will use tax as my example of the payment, since we are talking about taxes. Because she has to pay her taxes, perhaps she will be unable to buy the beans she intended to feed her son on Friday. In other words, she does not give up coins to pay her taxes. With or without the tax invoice, she would have ended up with no coins. She gives up beans.
If you are a liberal, and so instinctively confused in fiscal matters, I know what you are thinking: “Why would the government tax her in beans?” Liberals don’t understand transactions. In tax transactions, there is a payer and a recipient. So far as she knows, the government actually receives 6.1 x 2.6 inch pieces of paper with ones printed on them. It is just paper, but can serve as currency for the purchase of beans. Unlike the five year old boy I was, the waitress has no affinity for coins or for paper currency. She wants beans because her son requires them. She forfeits his beans so the government can receive payment.
That the government deprives her of beans through taxation is observable. Look what happens when she does not pay her taxes. She still has no currency, but she does have beans. However, Mr. Nibor already has all the beans his children can eat. When the government takes a 6.1 x 2.6 inch paper with a one printed on it from him, he has one fewer pieces of such paper. The paper itself is as inherently useless to him as it was to the waitress, but he has need of nothing to exchange for it, so the paper itself is the thing the government denies him. The waitress pays taxes in the form of her son’s dinner and Mr. Nibor pays taxes in paper. Paper and beans are not the same thing, so they do not seem equal to the childish liberal observer.

The mistake in the liberal’s thinking is clear now that Mr. Nibor explained things. Previously, I thought if the task was for us to move a 500 pound rock, we should divide the work each person does based on his ability to do it. Mr. Nibor teaches that this perspective violates our constitutional concept of equality, and is akin to racism, in that it makes the same mistake in assuming inequality where none exists. Dividing contributions based on the ability to lift or based on the ability to pay is discriminatory. In reality, if there were two people tasked with moving the rock, one a 20 year old body builder and the other a frail 95 year old elderly woman, each should be required to lift 250 pounds. It takes a true socialist’s mind to blind itself to this obvious formula.
With flat taxes, the waitress and Mr. Nibor are technically taxed equal percentages at the moment the tax is levied; but in reality, what each has to give up in tax, is not equal. This fact can trick the liberal into thinking nonsense. If the waitress has to give the 20,000.00 per year she earns to the government and Mr. Nibor also gives 20,000.00, nothing could be more equal, as a simple calculation will reveal. Flat taxes based on percentages are supposed to solve any objection the waitress may have, as the generous republicans are now offering to pay even more than she pays; yet, she is still not satisfied because the same issue remains: her ten percent is far more valuable and needed than the ten percent Mr. Nibor pays.
Some liberals say the waitress gave up all she had and Mr. Nibor gave up relatively little. They lack basic math skills. Remember the value of the thing the citizen gives up in payment is irrelevant. It is the value of the thing the government receives as payment that matters. We defend the republican’s right to not pay more by showing that the government receives the same percentage whether it comes from the republican or the impoverished liberal. We cannot look at the value of the payment to Mr. Nibor vs. the value to the waitress, even though it is Mr. Nibor vs. the waitress’ rights we are discussing. If we think of things that way, it breaks an equation that is pivotal in our quest for the specific truth we seek.
Mr. Nibor informs me that my idea that those who “win life’s lottery” must pay their fair share is mistaken. Before he educated me, I would have foolishly considered that the winner of life’s muscle, the body builder, should also have to lift his fair share. That notion is equally silly. It is not Mr. Nibor’s fault granny is puny and poor and he should not be penalized for it. The question of who must bear the burden of taxation and rock-lifting is all about Mr. Nibor’s rights. Since when did granny’s deficiencies have anything to do with Mr. Nibor? She must carry 250 pounds of rock and pay her fair share in taxes, which is whatever percent Mr. Nibor feels he can spare.

I used to think that currency was worth nothing more than the value of the things you could buy with it. If you need 100.00 worth of medicine to save your life, your 100.00 is worth a human life. If Mr. Nibor needs 100.00 to buy a gourmet pizza, his 100.00 is worth an edible treat.  Before Mr. Nibor corrected my thinking, I actually believed that the waitress’ 20,000.00 was somehow more relevant since it would be traded for far more relevant things, than Mr. Nibor’s 20,000.00. My thinking was backwards. Never, never, never forget that it’s the value to the recipient of a payment, not the value to the payer, that determines its worth. We cannot say that both values are real and both should be considered because that unjustly penalizes long suffering republicans. It is only fair to ignore this mismatched perception and look only at the side of the transaction that we need to be equal: in both cases the government receives 20,000.00. Have we learned nothing from the civil rights movement?
Twenty thousand dollars paid is equal to twenty thousand dollars received, regardless of who pays it or how the recipient spends it. It is a simple concept for those indoctrinated with the core conservative values we all should have. For me it wasn’t easy. I keep returning to the mistake of my childhood when I invented a relationship between the value of something and the potential use of it. It is a false correlation.
My lying grandpa was not the scoundrel I perceived him to be. He did pay my sister three coins and me only one, and I still resent it, because the coins were toys we never intended to spend, so I ended up with only one toy to her three; but things have intrinsic value, regardless of how they could be used. A dollar is worth a dollar, no matter who gets it or where, no matter who spends it or how. A dollar given to a dolphin in the ocean is the same gift as a dollar given to a child, or a dollar a waitress was allowed to keep. It is confusing for a liberal, but as Mr. Nibor, Grandpa, and any dolphin will tell you, it is really quite simple and there is no need to for us to complicate the math with real life: a dollar is a dollar, ten percent is ten percent and two dimes and a nickel are the same thing as a quarter.

29 comments:

Robert the Skeptic said...

I remember when Steve Forbs was running for president, he was a big proponent of the Flat Tax. It does sound good, doesn’t it – everyone pays the same flat percentage.

But Forbs is a businessman and business owners don’t have the same “income” as you and I. Wage earners are taxed on their gross income, but business people are taxed on their “net” income after expenses/deductions.

For example: I have a film production company. My sales are $10,000 but I also bought a nifty computer ($1,500), software ($1,000), comfy chair for my office ($500)… you get the drift. I get to subtract all those expenses before I am taxed on what is left over. But my working-stiff buddy, his taxes come off the top of his income, THEN he gets to buy his computer and software and comfy chair AFTER his taxes have been taken out.

Pretty sneaky, those business guys who influence Congress and tinker with the tax code for their benefit and our expense.

Oso said...

Two things make me skeptical about a Flat Tax:
1) Rich guys are all for it cause it apparently makes their tax burden go down.Assuming the govt doesn't vote to lower the debt ceiling, the implication is everybody else's tax burden goes up.

2) it sounds like Flat Earth, and although all the earth I've driven or walked over has been flat, there are globes for sale in markets all over the world and I'm sure if the world wasn't really round somebody would do something, possibly raising the taxes of people who buy and sell those things.

Oso said...

John,
in spite of my wordiness in your response to me, I'm in full agreement with it.

I would agree with corporate taxes being high as well, due to the corporate obsession with short term over long term gain. When taxes are low corporations tend to spend profits on bonuses and dividends, with high taxes and given the choice between handing their $ to uncle sam or investing in capital and even workers salary,they always choose the latter and it spurs the economy.

Awhile back I went to the Bureau of Economic Analysis site, you can make up a lot of graphs there. I pulled GDP going back to around 1930, then % change yearly in GDP, then pulled IRS high end marginal tax rate over that period. While it may not be definitive, it was enough to convince me high taxes are the way to go, strictly from the standpoint of the economy.

When taxes were low, GDP briefly boomed then we went into a depression. With high taxes, there was steady growth year to year.

Dave Dubya said...

I'm sure Larry David would agree with you.

Oliver Wendell Holmes correctly said, “Taxes are the price we pay to live in a civil society." This would make Republicans truly uncivil. As if that were news...

T. Paine said...

I think what is overlooked in most of this is that the deductions one can take when filing his taxes need to be drastically overhauled.

I don't have a problem with a progressive tax system per se, but it needs to be streamlined into perhaps just three brackets or so with minimal, if any, deductions being allowed.

Same goes for businesses. Deductions, especially for large corporations, need to be dramatically reduced in scope and amount.

The tax code is quite ridiculous in its current form with it thousands upon thousands of pages of instructions and requirements.

I think that a even a flat tax could work if structured properly. Make people/families below the poverty level exempt and then disallow most deductions for those upto a certain middle income threshold and then disallow all deductions above the highest income threshold.

I am sure there are probably fatal flaws in all of this, but there is an absolute necessity to streamline and refine our current tax code for sure. Although government spending probably needs to be addressed first!

Jolly Roger said...

Wow. T and I agree on something, kinda-sorta.

I personally think the income tax system just isn't going to work, because politicians can skew it whenever they get the correct payoff from the correct entity. It is going to take a combination of flat tax and VAT to make the taxation system actually work.

I do have ideas on what that would look like, but I'll articulate them at a later time.

John Myste said...

Jolly,

Funny, when I read Paine's comment, I could not believe it. I was convinced that he would have me in tears before I knew what hit me. I thought: "Wow, his opinion is not that different from mine." Then, much to my dismay, I realized that I am the one with the fanatic opinion in this matter. He continues to surprise me. As you know, almost everything he thinks is backwards. Yet, his logic behind it is often very enlightened.

I used to be mystified by such things, but I came to realize that a few well-placed axioms build the box in which most of us think. I think in one box and he another. My box is better than his, but not my mind.

Paine,

I accept your concession in this matter.

Dave,
Very aggressive. Republicans know they are less civil than democrats without us bringing it up.

Oso,
Stay off that site. It allows anyone to build any case they need. I don’t need stats and facts. I have opinion and it’s the only data I need.

The Heathen Republican said...

I found your tale fascinating, and clearly Mr. Nibor is a fool. But I can't help but note that he seems to have asked (and tried to answer) a serious question, yet you respond with (clearly deserved) mockery and a riveting tale... but no actual rebuttal.

Your story reminds me of an old classic from Crash Test Dummies called God Shuffled His Feet.

"The people sipped their wine
And what with God there, they asked him questions
Like: do you have to eat
Or get your hair cut in heaven?
And if your eye got poked out in this life
Would it be waiting up in heaven with your wife?

"God shuffled his feet and glanced around at them;
The people cleared their throats and stared right back at him

"So he said:"Once there was a boy
Who woke up with blue hair
To him it was a joy
Until he ran out into the warm air
He thought of how his friends would come to see;
And would they laugh, or had he got some strange disease?

"God shuffled his feet and glanced around at them;
The people cleared their throats and stared right back at him"


You see, a serious question has been asked, yet God responds with parables containing little meaning. And that's okay, as far as it goes. Perhaps you prefer metaphorical tales to actual debate of ideological issues. To each his own, and all that, but if I might impose... do you have an alternative to the one asked by Mr. Nibor?

The question, of course, appears to be what is fair in terms of an income tax rate. While we intellectuals here understand the lack of merit in a flat tax proposal, I'm quite curious to hear your alternative, if the question is one of fairness.

The Heathen Republican said...

I would also support fewer deductions and loopholes, either in our current system or in a flat tax system. All they do is add complexity (making it more costly to simply comply with the law), disguise one's real tax bill, and reduce the tax bill of those with special knowledge. I'm against all of those things.

While I'm sure we can't settle it here, I still don't understand what makes a more progressive tax system fair. It strikes me as unfair, almost definitionally. The only two arguments I can think a proponent would offer would be 1) It's fair because the wealthy can afford to pay disproportionately more or 2) Who said we want the tax system to be fair?

Neither of which, frankly, I find compelling.

Oso said...

John,
I both concur with and respect your logic,especially with relating "not having an answer" to questioning the existence of God.
Also I agree one should either have an opinion or something funny to say before commenting.

Heathen Republican,while I have some philosophical differences with your beliefs on taxation, I understand and respect your principles.

ashok said...

It appears that you have thought deeply on these issues, John. I too feel that a flat tax is not fair. Perhaps the only thing in its favor is simplicity. However, the tragedy is that even democratic goverments are moved by agendas that are quite different from the way things should be. Taxation policies are an example. The days of Kings that controlled and ruled over people have gone but even now it is the rich and powerful that control policies.In place of a single person we now have a minority group that controls the fate and life of the majority.

A taxation system that is fairer, simple and has a flat tax includes a bsic exemption. i.e the first ten thousand dollars (that includes the price of beans) is not taxed and the rest is taxed at a flat rate

ashok said...

The basic exemption limit may not be ten thousand. That should vary with time and place. Perhaps there needs to be a cap on incomes too. It is just obscene what top bankers get as salaries and bonuses. In reality they have hijacked the business in collusion with the board and are drawing profits from their risks in the guise of salary and bonuses. The funny thing is that the risk is not theirs but of the shareholders and public. If the bank sinks they can move on to another bank or their resorts in the Bahamas. The funnier thing still is the unwillingness of goverments to act to restore sense.

The Heathen Republican said...

Ashok, since John won't engage on the actual fairness of a progressive tax, perhaps you can help me understand why you also think a progressive system is more fair than a flat tax.

I'd also love to hear how a cap on income could be construed as fair? And who would you trust to set the cap?

The Heathen Republican said...

John, I know that we disagree on the basics, that's why I asked Ashok. Perhaps he can explain it in a way that I'll understand, since you choose not to.

I sincerely don't understand the argument that progressive taxes are fair, so I'm trying to see your and his perspective.

ashok said...

Heathen, in ancient times Kings had all the wealth and others hardly anything. The Kings justified it as God given rights. Human society has moved on from there now. it is now held that wealth belongs to all.

In modern times in capitalistic economies a few persons have managed to amass huge amounts very often using very greedy and immoral practices ( if not illegal). Such persons with the help of there money power support, propogate and uphold the extreme conservative view in order to protect their wealth in a manner similar to ancient Kings. I am certain that human society will move on from this point of view too.

The Heathen Republican said...

It's clear to me that John feels like we're spinning our wheels, so instead of continuing here, I've posted a reply at The Heathen Republican if you'd like to continue the conversation.

Francis Hunt said...

I feel it somewhat strange, as a non-believer, to approvingly quote Christian scripture, but I feel the following story of Jesus might be enlightening to conservatives and Republicans - many of whom (Heathen Republican notwithstanding :-)) - like to describe themselves as Christians:

"Jesus sat down opposite the place where the offerings were put and watched the crowd putting their money into the temple treasury. Many rich people threw in large amounts. But a poor widow came and put in two very small copper coins, worth only a few cents.
Calling his disciples to him, Jesus said, “Truly I tell you, this poor widow has put more into the treasury than all the others. They all gave out of their wealth; but she, out of her poverty, put in everything—all she had to live on.”"(Mark 12:41-44)

Larry Sol said...

Jesus was not selfish. Common sense says the rich paying more is fair. I cant pay what they pay. I not rich. Why not we all pay the 3k dollars I pay annually and then just put a going out of business sign on America. If you are selfish you will not be able to understand very much about not being selfish. No reason trying to explain it. What do selfish people care about fairness?

The Heathen Republican said...

Your criticism is unfair and you're making assumptions about my motives. If you'd care to know, I didn't select any of the data. I simply located what was available on the IRS website (available at the link I provided). If I'd had my druthers, I would've used data over a 50-60 year period, through 2010. But all that was available was 2001 through 2008, so that's what I used.

I didn't walk into the analysis with an idea of the result. I was open to your suggestion that the results would be different when accounting for income share instead of population share. And, in fact, the results were less steeply progressive than T. Paine suggested.

John Myste said...

2001 - 2008 is all that is available on that site? Verified. On that count, you are exonderated, sir. Rest pending ...

Oso said...

T Paine,
It's true the rich pay considerably more income tax, however when payroll tax is taken into consideration I believe the numbers actually meet somewhere in the middle. I'll try to find them.

MRMacrum said...

Someone once told me the way to look at taxation was not to look at it from the perspective of percentages based on income, but based on percentage of sacrifice. You seem to be on the same page.

I thought I would never see the day when two Liberals, no make that three Liberals are on the same page on anything. We do indeed live in strange times

The Heathen Republican said...

And the civility has come to an end. Oh well, we made it through 39 comments before the wing nuts decided to see what a reasonable conversation looks like.

Dave Dubya said...

Dear HR,

My, oh my, feeling a bit sensitive are we, if I bash your sacred cows? I was not referring to you; but you seem to take it to heart for some reason.

They say far worse things about my kind, you know.

Love,
Your favorite freeloading America-hating, loony liberal, ad hominum "Wing Nut"

Dave Dubya said...

MRMacrum,
We're not allowed to use the word "greed". It's uncivil, you know.

Oso said...

John,
Sorry to hear your mom has been ill.I hope she's better now,if not better I send good thoughts her/you and yours way and hope things are at a point where life is as close to normal as can be.

T. Paine said...

I haven't seen such fantastic tap dancing since Gregory Hines passed away! :)

In all seriousness though, my fervent prayers are with you and your Mother for her full recovery, John.

Dave Dubya said...

Why do I keep following this thread? It's starting to make me think, and that makes my head hurt.

For example, I just thought that a "fair" tax system might be the rates paid by the wealthy under Reagan. They should like that, right? But wait. No, they would not like that at all. I've learned that those tax rates are now called "socialism".

Never mind.

Good luck with your mom. I hope things can be as pain-free and emotionally calm as possible.

The Heathen Republican said...

Myste, as Rush Limbaugh would say, it appears that I am living inside your head rent free.

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